MKS Toolkit vs. Lawson Unix Utilities - Major problem

It's a microsoft issue, LUU/the Microsoft SUA is not able to run sh. Tim Butzier from lawson confirmed it to me a while back. Last I checked, they were waiting for a fix from Microsoft... so basically any programs that invokes from sh, don't work with LUU.

I do know the upgrade programs must use MKStoolkit, the upgrade programs do not work with LUU.

Thanks, Jimmy.

I currently have a case open with GSC but they so far have been unable to identify the problem.  But I'm keeping them on the hook because we need to get off of MKS ToolKit.  The licensing required for MKS Toolkit is simply unacceptable.

Do you have any details on the incompatibility issue?  I'm very interested in hearing more.

FYI:
IAN-90x-102701-01
Release Date: October 27, 2009
Status: Required
Title: Lawson Unix Utilities and MKS Toolkit
Description:
Customers wishing to use Lawson Unix Utilities:
Lawson has discovered a technical flaw with Lawson Unix Utilities (LUU) upon installing or upgrading Lawson deliverables through Lawson Interface Desktop (LID). The problem that could be encountered as a result of this technical flaw will only occur during the installation and is not impacted at runtime except for running 'sh' commands through LID.
Resolution:
Customers must use MKS to perform the installations and upgrades of Lawson deliverables. After installs and /or upgrades are complete, you can convert to Lawson Unix Utilities by enabling Microsoft SUA and then installing Lawson Unix Utilities. For details, see the Lawson Unix Utilities Installation Guide. Lawson Unix Utilities can be used for all runtime commands except for running 'sh' commands through LID.
Distribution:
This Installation Alert is being sent

FYI: a clip from my CASE a year ago.

Mar 15, 2010 0:18 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
Hi Jimmy Chiu, my name is Tim Butzler and I will be working on your request from here. I want to take a minute to review your support request and any prior dialogue.

Mar 15, 2010 0:19 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
Hi Jimmy, Do you have the programs under UG system code in pgmdef?

Mar 15, 2010 0:19 PM CUSTOMERUSER To EOUSER
I have UG00, and UG999

Mar 15, 2010 0:19 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
Send me your Install.log again from ugsrc. It's not installing your upgrade programs then.

Mar 15, 2010 0:20 PM CUSTOMERUSER To EOUSER
XXXXXXX blanked out the links

Mar 15, 2010 0:23 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
Are you on Windows?

Mar 15, 2010 0:23 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
Are you using MKS or LUU?

Mar 15, 2010 0:23 PM CUSTOMERUSER To EOUSER
LUU

Mar 15, 2010 0:24 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
That's not supported for upgrades. Your installs won't work with LUU it's required to have MKS when installing Upgrade programs. That is why your programs won't compile as LUU has an issue with scripts that use a loop. There is a critical notification on this.

Mar 15, 2010 0:25 PM CUSTOMERUSER To EOUSER
... what is my option then?

Mar 15, 2010 0:30 PM CUSTOMERUSER To EOUSER
yeah I just read the critical notification. LUU can be used for all command EXCEPT "sh" which is the case here.

Mar 15, 2010 0:30 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
Yea, so we need to switch to MKS to install and run the upgrade programs as UG00 and UG99 both have sh scripts we run as well then change it back to LUU once the upgrade is done.

Mar 15, 2010 0:32 PM CUSTOMERUSER To EOUSER
So i can just install MKS "for now" then run the upgrade install? Do I need to switch to the "mks" setting in the laconfig setting?

Mar 15, 2010 0:33 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
Yes, you would need to switch that in laconfig then stop/start everything so it takes affect.

Mar 15, 2010 0:34 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
You need to use MKS for the entire upgrade process not just the install.

^^^ apparently there are scripts that don't work with LUU also during runtime, thus, they need me to use MKS thru the whole upgrade process.

Mar 15, 2010 0:40 PM CUSTOMERUSER To EOUSER
I knew I should just use MKS instead of LUU.. ok thanks.

^^^ paying > freebie

Mar 15, 2010 0:41 PM Tim Butzler To CUSTOMERUSER
It's actually a Microsoft issue for LUU not being able to run sh so we're waiting for a fix from them.

^^^ i don't think the fix is here yet a year later.

Mar 15, 2010 0:50 PM CUSTOMERUSER To EOUSER
ok

I ran into the same upgrade issues as well with needing to use MKS Toolkit to run upgrades. I have done upgrades last year and this year and there is no way to do them with out MKS just like Jimmy said. I cannot believe Lawson forced users to switch to something they can not use for every purpose. I guess they did not want to pay the licensing for MKS any longer either. I would say if you have an application upgrade in your future than you will want to have at least a couple of licenses for MKS.

Here's the problem with using MKS:

The MKS Toolkit license specifically states that "At no time shall the total number of installed copies of the Software or the total number of Users exceed the number of licenses for which you have paid a license fee."

 

In essence, you must purchase an MKS license for each and every user of your Lawson system.  You cannot just purchase one license of MKS for your server and then turn your users loose on the system.

 

That's how Lawson gets around by saying that you can use MKS Toolkit for the installation of your environment since you typically only have one person on the system doing the install.  However, before you place your system into production, you must first remove MKS Toolkit and install the Microsoft Utilities for Unix / LUU.  That is, if you want to remain in compliance with your licensing agreement with MKS (assuming you purchased a single license of MKS).

 

Now imagine a Lawson environment that has 2000+ users.  Can you imagine the cost of 2000+ MKS licenses?

 

I think this is why Lawson came out with the LUU product.  However, the problem is that if you use Lawson's EDI and/or the PO module, you are forced to stay on MKS as LUU will not work with these Lawson components.  Lawson insists this is a Microsoft issue. 

 

This has put large Lawson clients in between a rock and a hard place.  Lawson has known about this issue for at least 16 months and say they are "actively" working with Microsoft. 

I don't know that I agree. I think it's a single user--lawson. I think the reason for LUU is that it removes a licensing hurdle for Lawson considering LSF uses very basic MKS functionality. =

It's actually Lawson plus anyone else that needs shell access. Ran into this exact problem but we were able to successfully go back mks versions that don't enforce the named user license

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2011, at 4:45 PM, forums-lsf-s3-sys-admin@lawsonguru.com wrote:

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John - I did have MKS come back and tell me specifically that I had to have an MKS license for every user accessing the system.

George - Something occurred to me about your post. Are you saying that you are using an older version of MKS Toolkit with your environment? If so, would that also mean that your environment is not supported by Lawson?

I'm just trying to look for a solution.

You don't really have a choice in my opinion.

Your lawson app doesn't work with LUU, it's a simple fact.

You need MKS to make it work.

MKS requires you to buy the 2000+ license.

Unless lawson can rewrite the codes to skip the shell access part. You are stuck.

Posted By Jimmy Chiu on 02/23/2011 10:39 AM
You don't really have a choice in my opinion. 

This is just bizarre. Lawson made a strategic decision to use a Unix emulation layer (MKS) in order to bring their product to market on the Windows platform faster rather than write it directly using Windows APIs (this was done way back in version 7.x).  MKS has always been the requirement.  Lawson is saying the client has always had a direct licensing relationship with MKS, and you really don't have to use MKS--you can use LUU, provided it works for you (it should work for some clients already on 9.0.1).

Here are some links from Lawson's support site regarding this:
Lawson S3 Third-Party Product Notice – MKS Toolkit Replacement Options
Lawson S3 Third-Party Product Notice – MKS Toolkit Licensing
Lawson Unix Utilities / Microsoft SUA and MKS Toolkit update Notice

Unfortunately, the notices that John posted above simply do not provide the whole story. If you are using Lawson EDI and/or using any applications that invoke 'sh', LUU will simply not work and you are forced to stay on MKS.

I still have my support case open with GSC and they are trying to create an environment matching mine in an effort to duplicate the problem.  However, based on past experience, I do not have very much confidence in them.

What, roughly, is the per user licensing cost that MKS wants?

When I last renewed my MKS Toolkit license, the cost was $479 per user.

Did MKS offer you concurrent user licenses?

For MKS 9.2 I am seeing a single user license on the MKS website for $479 and 5 user license for $2,225 which is $445 per user. For more users it says to just contact sales.

There is a note that for support of Windows 7 and Server 2008 R2 we may need MKS Toolkit 9.4. The note also states that 9.4 is not availble for sale on the MKS webstore. So I am not sure of what to make of that.

We are using version 9.2.0200.

And I don't think the issue is with "named" users. The MKS license agreement specifically states "User(s) means any individual who from time to time uses the Software..." "At no time shall the total number of installed copies of the Software or the total number of Users exceed the number of licenses for which you have paid a license fee. At no time shall generic logins be used that allow multiple Users under one license."

We have not yet opened a dialog with MKS to see if they offer concurrent user licenses.

Now, I'm not a lawyer so I don't fully understand what excactly a user is. For example, none of my users connect to MKS directly (they are not executing scripts, running shells, etc.), they are simply Lawson users and the Lawson software makes the necessary calls to MKS. So does that mean that my Lawson users are basically also MKS users "by proxy"? If that is the case, then I need 2,500+ licenses for MKS which is absolutely ridiculous.

My support case is still open with GSC and they tell me they are still trying to create an environment to test ED501 / ED502 to see if they can duplicate the problem. They are moving excrutiatingly slow for a priority 2 support case, but that's another story.

When I went to the MKS website the FAQ for 9.2 states that it is Named users. I have not looked at how MKS licensed 9.2 in the past. Assuming MKS offers a volume discount of say around $400 per user that would be over $200,000. A discount to $40 per user would get us to over $20,000. Not good numbers.

From my understanding the problem of Lawson and MKS is as follows:

MKS licensing requires that you either license each named user of MKS or you can buy unnamed (max concurrent) licenses. If you have 2000 users and you want each user to have a named license you would have to buy 2000 named licenses. But if only 200 are active concurrently out of your 2000 users then you could buy 200 (max conncurrent) unnamed licenses. The named licenses are around $400+ each and the unnamed licenses are around $1200+ each. After the first year, you will have to pay yearly maintenance for each license if you wish to do be able to upgrade to newer MKS versions, etc. Yearly maintenance for named licenses is around $100+ each and for unnamed licenses around $400+ each. Please note the costs are approximate.

The MKS licensing model discussed above has been true for all MKS versions, MKS 8.x, MKS 9.1, MKS 9.2, MKS 9.3, and MKS 9.4.

Before MKS 9.3, there was not a way for MKS to know how many users were actually using MKS. MKS 9.3 and MKS 9.4 began using a new activation method which can determine user and license use. That is when it was discovered by MKS that Lawson does not use only use one MKS license for the Lawson userid as we have all been told, but actually each Lawson end-user uses MKS when accessing Lawson and therefore requires a license.

This leaves us Lawson/MKS customers between a rock and a hard place. We can either pay MKS to license each user as required, or we can remove MKS and use the Lawson provided LUU replacement product instead of MKS. You must be on at least Windows 2003 R2 SP2 to use LUU. You must be on at least LSF 9.0.0.8 or LSF 9.0.1.5 to use LUU. Other requirements can be found at Lawson site.

As mentioned in other posts above, LUU has some problems. If it doesn't work for you then you have to use MKS and deal with the licensing cost. We are planning on moving off MKS immediately. It is not because we don't like MKS, but because we feel the licensing costs are exhorbant. If the cost per license was reasonable, we would have stuck with MKS.

Fred - Thanks very much for sharing that information. At least it confirms what I've been saying all along: Either go with LUU and deal with the problems that option presents or go with MKS Toolkit and deal with the licensing costs.

Either way, it's a very tough decision that we have to make. I hope that other users of Lawson are aware of these challenges so that they can make appropriate and educated decisions regarding their own ERP implementations.

Fred, you are correct in much of what you outlined in your 03/03/2011 05:45 PM posting.

For now, let me please offer feedback on 3 topics:


1) MKS Toolkit is licensed on both an Installation and a User basis.

2) MKS and Lawson customers using MKS Toolkit have been placed “between a rock and a hard place”.

3) What can MKS offer in an effort to help?


More on each topic below -


1) MKS Toolkit is licensed on both an Installation and a User basis.


I happen to have a copy of the MKS License Agreement for MKS Toolkit, version 8.5, in a folder that I keep containing 10+ years worth of MKS License Agreements.

Here are two excerpts from the version 8.5 MKS License Agreement:

"'User(s)' means any individual who from time to time uses the Software, provided that any individual who permanently ceases to use the Software may be replaced by another individual and such replacement shall not be considered a separate User for purposes of this Agreement."

“if you Install the Software on a network, client/server arrangement or any computer configuration which permits more than one User to have access to the Software, you have first paid for a license or for a separate copy of the Software for each additional User.”

I also have another MKS License Agreement for which I do not know the version, but it has a Windows "Date Modified" stamp of 9/17/1999 10:58 AM, and it too has the language above. And, I know that MKS Toolkit version 8.0, which you referenced in your posting, was released January 14, 2002.

Therefore, with confidence I can offer that the MKS License Agreement clearly stated that MKS Toolkit is licensed per User since at least 1999, and since at least version 8.0, without asking MKS Legal for even older files.


2) MKS and Lawson customers using MKS Toolkit have been placed “between a rock and a hard place”.


Lawson customers are between a rock and a hard place for at least 2 reasons:

A) The technical issues noted above.

B) Moving from MKS Toolkit to LUU does not remove the legal obligation to pay for what you used, at peak use of MKS Toolkit.

MKS is between a rock and a hard place for at least 2 reasons:

A) By adding programmatic license compliance to our products, and then hearing from Lawson customers who tried to run their Lawson server(s) from a single node locked, "Named User" license of MKS Toolkit that had programmatic license compliance, MKS learned that Lawson customers are and have been over using our intellectual property for years.

B) Have you ever had the responsibility of informing someone that they are out of compliance with the License Agreement that they accepted at installation? Have you ever had the responsibility of having to ask them to please pay for their over use, especially when Lawson recently offered a free replacement option? Have you ever been blamed for something, when you were innocent? Would you like to step into my shoes for a day?


3) What can MKS offer in an effort to help?


First, we hope that folks reading this post can appreciate that asking MKS to only be compensated for 1 User, if you have > 1 User using MKS Toolkit, is not fair. Also, please appreciate the fact that had MKS been able to confirm that our product was being over used prior to our release of MKS Toolkit with programmatic license compliance, we would have reached out to you sooner, and we would have refused to accept any additional orders from Lawson, the moment that this issue had been confirmed.

Second, while MKS can offer Named User licenses, our offer below is based upon Concurrent Use licenses. From working with other Lawson customers, it would seem that Concurrent Use is a better and more cost effective fit for most.

Here is what we are currently offering:

A) MKS is willing to offer Lawson customers who are willing to work with us toward license compliance, a no charge, temporary Concurrent Use license of MKS Toolkit, at the latest version, for each of your Lawson servers (Dev, Test, Prod, Back-up/Disaster Recovery, etc.).

B) MKS is willing to set the initial number of Concurrent Users for each respective use license of MKS Toolkit to whatever reasonable number a customer requests. We should pick a number that is a little above what you think is required, in an effort of avoiding interruption to your hard working employees.

C) Once installed, MKS can then either increase or decrease the number of Concurrent Users depending upon what your users are experiencing.

For instance:

- If one or more of your employees using a Lawson server receive a warning that there are no unused licenses of MKS Toolkit, we can increase the count by 1 or 2 Concurrent Users, and see what happens.

- If none of your employees using a Lawson server receive a warning that there are no unused licenses of MKS Toolkit, we can - decrease - the count by 1 or 2 Concurrent Users, and see what happens.

The goal of the no charge evaluation licenses being to help us only ask you to invest in a number of MKS Toolkit Concurrent Use licenses, which represents actual use patterns, for each of your Lawson server types. And, once we know how many Concurrent Use, MKS Toolkit licenses you need, MKS will provide a quotation for the same.

In addition, MKS is also currently offering:

A) A trade-in credit for all of your current MKS Toolkit use licenses for which Maintenance is active, at list price, toward Concurrent Use replacements.

B) A discount - I will ask MKS to allow me to offer you a discount, on the balance due after your trade-in credit.

Why is MKS making this offer?

From working with other Lawson customers MKS has come to the conclusion that their over use of our intellectual property has been unintentional, as none seem to have knowledge concerning how Lawson products use MKS Toolkit "under the hood", especially at runtime, just as MKS had no idea that our products were being over used for the same reason.

Therefore, attempting to step into your shoes, we again are currently offering no charge evaluations, a trade-in credit, and a discount, to all Lawson customers who are willing to do the right thing, by working with MKS to move to license compliance, when it comes to your installation and use of MKS Toolkit.

Thank you for reading this post.

Please let me know if I can be of service.

Rick.Willhite@mks.com
703-803-4366

Rick, thanks for sharing MKS' side of the story. I'm proud that lawsonguru.com can provide this type of open communication forum. I agree that the over-use of MKS is obviously unintended, as I was myself always under the impression that the licensing was aimed at the Lawson service, not the number using the service. In other words, a single user not hundreds or thousands. Clearly an eye-opener. =